Comments on: DIBELS and the Seductive Lure of Snake Oil http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/ (bôr'dər-lănd') n. Located on or near a frontier. An indeterminate area or condition. Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:24:44 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Emily http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-128015 Emily Sun, 04 Oct 2009 06:55:31 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/#comment-128015 The DIBELS is a test that encourages kids to read badly. Kids are prepped to guess at words and then move on. It teaches kids to read sloppily, too fast for comprehension. I know two engineers who are brilliant and neither one reads fast, because that's not what you do in technical fields. They would have failed DIBELS if they had been given it, and America would have lost two more intelligent people to mediocrity. The DIBELS is a test that encourages kids to read badly. Kids are prepped to guess at words and then move on. It teaches kids to read sloppily, too fast for comprehension. I know two engineers who are brilliant and neither one reads fast, because that’s not what you do in technical fields. They would have failed DIBELS if they had been given it, and America would have lost two more intelligent people to mediocrity.

]]> By: Doug Noon http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-123481 Doug Noon Thu, 14 May 2009 23:16:59 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/#comment-123481 Stella, I was wondering about that rat. Thank you for clearing it up. Some questions I have about your DIBELS endorsement: *Why should we care whether they read the DIBELS passages as a fluency gauge, instead of any other material they may happen to be actually reading? *What difference does it make what their <em>rate</em> is, so long as they're reading, understanding, and enjoying what they're reading? *Doesn't constant fluency monitoring send an implied message that fluency is more important than other measures of reading competence? *How do repeated timed readings provide legitimate evidence of real-world reading ability? *Who gets to decide what a "normal" rate of reading is? And why should there be such a thing? *Most importantly, what's the point of running through a meaningless fluency drill for kids and teachers who don't care about the results? For me, it's simply an exercise in bureaucratic compliance. Fluency is but one indicator of reading competence, and the DIBELS tries to standardize and quantify a quality of reading that is largely subjective - except for that <em>rate</em> business. We agree that any tool can be misused. And nowhere in what you've said here do I see how DIBELS is good or necessary. I'm not inclined to measure things that don't need to be measured. Nevertheless, I appreciate the time you took to read and contribute here. Thanks for checking in. Stella, I was wondering about that rat. Thank you for clearing it up.

Some questions I have about your DIBELS endorsement:
*Why should we care whether they read the DIBELS passages as a fluency gauge, instead of any other material they may happen to be actually reading?

*What difference does it make what their rate is, so long as they’re reading, understanding, and enjoying what they’re reading?

*Doesn’t constant fluency monitoring send an implied message that fluency is more important than other measures of reading competence?

*How do repeated timed readings provide legitimate evidence of real-world reading ability?

*Who gets to decide what a “normal” rate of reading is? And why should there be such a thing?

*Most importantly, what’s the point of running through a meaningless fluency drill for kids and teachers who don’t care about the results?

For me, it’s simply an exercise in bureaucratic compliance. Fluency is but one indicator of reading competence, and the DIBELS tries to standardize and quantify a quality of reading that is largely subjective – except for that rate business.

We agree that any tool can be misused. And nowhere in what you’ve said here do I see how DIBELS is good or necessary. I’m not inclined to measure things that don’t need to be measured. Nevertheless, I appreciate the time you took to read and contribute here. Thanks for checking in.

]]> By: Stella http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-123477 Stella Thu, 14 May 2009 22:09:02 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/#comment-123477 I made a mistake... I meant to say that the children see their RATE climbing on the graph. NOT their RAT! So, sorry. I made a mistake… I meant to say that the children see their RATE climbing on the graph. NOT their RAT! So, sorry.

]]> By: Stella http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-123476 Stella Thu, 14 May 2009 22:07:35 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/#comment-123476 I use dibels.The passages are interesting, they provide a daily dose of "eyes on text" in a community where not every student goes home to a literate environment. I use it as a running record, marking errors much as I do on a DRA assessment. I do time the reading on Mondays and graph it so the child sees where they are with regard to rate and errors. I comment on the type of errors they are making and take a couple of minutes to give them ideas about how to solve those errors. The students read the same passage every day that week and they see their rat climbing on the graph. They demonstrate enthusiasm and motivation to improve their prosody, intonation, error rate, etc. I ask them to retell what they read, but I do not mark it on the dibles ORF scale, I just listen and make a determination about whether or not the child is comprehending as he/she reads. I tell them to take the passage home and reread for practice (some of our students lack reading material at home). Our school does not use the dibels data management system. We use them for increased reading time, to talk about subject matter that may be unfamiliar to them, to point out vocabulary words and to give them more background knowledge on which to draw for subsequent reading experiences. I think dibels is a good thing, it can be misused as can any other program. The real "KEY" to learning is a talented, conscientious teacher with the best interests of her students at heart. I use dibels.The passages are interesting, they provide a daily dose of “eyes on text” in a community where not every student goes home to a literate environment. I use it as a running record, marking errors much as I do on a DRA assessment. I do time the reading on Mondays and graph it so the child sees where they are with regard to rate and errors. I comment on the type of errors they are making and take a couple of minutes to give them ideas about how to solve those errors. The students read the same passage every day that week and they see their rat climbing on the graph. They demonstrate enthusiasm and motivation to improve their prosody, intonation, error rate, etc. I ask them to retell what they read, but I do not mark it on the dibles ORF scale, I just listen and make a determination about whether or not the child is comprehending as he/she reads. I tell them to take the passage home and reread for practice (some of our students lack reading material at home). Our school does not use the dibels data management system. We use them for increased reading time, to talk about subject matter that may be unfamiliar to them, to point out vocabulary words and to give them more background knowledge on which to draw for subsequent reading experiences.
I think dibels is a good thing, it can be misused as can any other program. The real “KEY” to learning is a talented, conscientious teacher with the best interests of her students at heart.

]]> By: Doug Noon http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-78132 Doug Noon Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:36:34 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/01/10/dibels-and-the-seductive-lure-of-snake-oil/#comment-78132 This, from Iora, was a comment worth thinking about. Too bad the link back to the comment's author is a dead-end. This, from Iora, was a comment worth thinking about. Too bad the link back to the comment’s author is a dead-end.

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