Comments on: Contested Ground http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/ (bôr'dər-lănd') n. Located on or near a frontier. An indeterminate area or condition. Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:43:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: Wesley Fryer http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-20792 Wesley Fryer Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:36:47 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-20792 So who is "Trace W" anyway? So who is “Trace W” anyway?

]]> By: Doug http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8632 Doug Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:13:59 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8632 And one that's worth hearing. Thanks. And one that’s worth hearing. Thanks.

]]> By: Dean Shareski http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8630 Dean Shareski Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:24:30 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8630 After reading this discussion I thought of this saying I heard the other day. "Accountability leads to Accountablism" I can't help but notice the distinctly American tone to the discussion. Being Canadian doesn't exclude me from accountability but certainly I feel much more free in my ability as a teacher to determine what's best for kids. I'm not sure this same discussion would likely occur outside of the US. Not completely a criticism but certainly an observation. After reading this discussion I thought of this saying I heard the other day.
“Accountability leads to Accountablism”
I can’t help but notice the distinctly American tone to the discussion. Being Canadian doesn’t exclude me from accountability but certainly I feel much more free in my ability as a teacher to determine what’s best for kids. I’m not sure this same discussion would likely occur outside of the US. Not completely a criticism but certainly an observation.

]]> By: Doug http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8146 Doug Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:03:43 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8146 What standardized test data can tell us about best practice is a sticking point in this discussion, since the divergence of opinion seems depend on challenges to the validity of various forms of evidence. In the process of hashing this out, we've covered the same ground repeatedly. I need to address some of these issues when I have more time. This thread has become an object lesson for me in online discourse. My role as moderator is one of several issues that I have been reflecting upon. I regret any hard feelings that may have been left by comments here. To those of you who have generously contributed to this discussion, thanks for your thoughtful remarks. What standardized test data can tell us about best practice is a sticking point in this discussion, since the divergence of opinion seems depend on challenges to the validity of various forms of evidence. In the process of hashing this out, we’ve covered the same ground repeatedly. I need to address some of these issues when I have more time.

This thread has become an object lesson for me in online discourse. My role as moderator is one of several issues that I have been reflecting upon. I regret any hard feelings that may have been left by comments here. To those of you who have generously contributed to this discussion, thanks for your thoughtful remarks.

]]> By: Tracy W http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8144 Tracy W Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:24:02 +0000 http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2006/09/30/contested-ground/#comment-8144 Interesting that the two criticisms Brian cites do not provide any actual evidence that DI fails to teach kids to read, or that the alternative methods the authors prefer actually teach kids to read as effectively as DI. Or indeed any evidence that DI results in kids who can't think, who just passively go along with systems. (Unless George Bush was taught by DI, which I don't know of any evidence for - plus there's Malcolm Gladwell's hypothesis that George Bush's problem was panic, he just wasn't coping with the adrenaline spike due to lack of experience of having to function through life-threatening experiences - the commentators not only do not investigate whether George Bush was taught by DI, they also do not even mention alternative hypotheses for his behaviour, let alone provide any reason to dismiss them). If Susan Ohanian has designed a method for teaching kids to read that is as effective as DI, that uses more interesting pacing and stories, then her criticism of <i>The Pet Goat</i>'s language would be rather more impressive. Unless she has, she doesn't have an evidence base for what is and isn't necessary to teach all kids to read. It may be possible to introduce proper names in stories at this stage, or it may just tip two or three small kids over the edge into failing. DI's been field-tested, how have Susan Ohanian's methods? Let's take Brian's example of the 800-pound man whose doctor brings him down to 400 pounds. Now, imagine this man has an identical twin, who also weighs 800 pounds. This identical twin goes to a different doctor, who also prescribes a program. But the second doctor doesn't just do that. The second doctor picks a program that has evidence that it has helped other people lose weight. The second doctor checks to see that her patient understands how to do every exercise, she checks to see that he understands how to shop, how to cook, and teaches these things if necessary (or, given comparative advantages, probably delegates this job to someone else). Her office calls the patient once a month for a check-up, see how he's going on the method, adjusts it as necessary, etc. At the end of four years, he's down to 250 pounds, is now running for buses, and seriously planning his first half marathon. Does this first doctor look like such a success now? Don't you think the first doctor should be studying what the second doctor does, and copying it (or improving it)? <i>Mr. Deroas is a mouthpiece for the Direct Instruction movement (as is “Tracy”). </i> Well, why aren't you? Or do you have another instructional method that works as well for disadvantaged kids as DI? It’s this opposition to effective methods of teaching kids to read that makes me wonder whether you do think that all kids should be taught to read and do basic maths. Why on earth aren't teachers out there demanding they be adopted this instant? Interesting that the two criticisms Brian cites do not provide any actual evidence that DI fails to teach kids to read, or that the alternative methods the authors prefer actually teach kids to read as effectively as DI.

Or indeed any evidence that DI results in kids who can’t think, who just passively go along with systems. (Unless George Bush was taught by DI, which I don’t know of any evidence for - plus there’s Malcolm Gladwell’s hypothesis that George Bush’s problem was panic, he just wasn’t coping with the adrenaline spike due to lack of experience of having to function through life-threatening experiences - the commentators not only do not investigate whether George Bush was taught by DI, they also do not even mention alternative hypotheses for his behaviour, let alone provide any reason to dismiss them).

If Susan Ohanian has designed a method for teaching kids to read that is as effective as DI, that uses more interesting pacing and stories, then her criticism of The Pet Goat’s language would be rather more impressive. Unless she has, she doesn’t have an evidence base for what is and isn’t necessary to teach all kids to read. It may be possible to introduce proper names in stories at this stage, or it may just tip two or three small kids over the edge into failing. DI’s been field-tested, how have Susan Ohanian’s methods?

Let’s take Brian’s example of the 800-pound man whose doctor brings him down to 400 pounds. Now, imagine this man has an identical twin, who also weighs 800 pounds. This identical twin goes to a different doctor, who also prescribes a program. But the second doctor doesn’t just do that. The second doctor picks a program that has evidence that it has helped other people lose weight. The second doctor checks to see that her patient understands how to do every exercise, she checks to see that he understands how to shop, how to cook, and teaches these things if necessary (or, given comparative advantages, probably delegates this job to someone else). Her office calls the patient once a month for a check-up, see how he’s going on the method, adjusts it as necessary, etc. At the end of four years, he’s down to 250 pounds, is now running for buses, and seriously planning his first half marathon.
Does this first doctor look like such a success now?

Don’t you think the first doctor should be studying what the second doctor does, and copying it (or improving it)?

Mr. Deroas is a mouthpiece for the Direct Instruction movement (as is “Tracy”).

Well, why aren’t you? Or do you have another instructional method that works as well for disadvantaged kids as DI?

It’s this opposition to effective methods of teaching kids to read that makes me wonder whether you do think that all kids should be taught to read and do basic maths. Why on earth aren’t teachers out there demanding they be adopted this instant?

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