Comments on: In Unsane Places

By: Doug

Doug — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:59:51 +0000

Susan, thank you for your comments about the conceptual baggage that comes with discussions about mental illness. In many ways this is like what happens when we talk about learning disabilities. I did give the term, ‘insanity,’ some thought as I wrote this. Hayakawa wrote about sanity, and Rosenhan used the word ‘insane’ in his article. In my initial draft I said ‘mental illness’ but then I took a look at the wikipedia entries for mental illness and insanity, and I decided to keep it simple and stick with the terminology that the authors used themselves. I realized that there were problems no matter what word I chose. The point you make speaks directly to my concerns about the harm and confusion that can come from labels.

Thank you, as well, for echoing my thoughts about the things that really count.

By: susan funk

susan funk — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:41:44 +0000

As a teacher with a family member with schizophernia, I read any references to being ‘insane’ with some emotional baggage. I recognize that you are not in fact talking about mental illness here but it is important to recognize that people with mental illnesses, prefer not to be called ‘insane’ or ‘crazy’ but to have their illness idenitfied. But I hate to miss an opportunity to raise a flag against the misconceptions which plague people with mental illnesses.

I found the experiment with labelling very interesting. I don’t know if you are familiar with the movie “A beautiful mind” but in it the character has ‘voices’ or ‘delusions which are not clearly idenitified in the beginning but become apparent closer to the end of the movie. My sister could identify the delusions long before they were idenitified by the action of the movie. She has had experience identifying the real from the unreal. It is not at all surprising to me that the patients could identify person who are well from person who are not. Nurses and doctors are as institutionalized as their patients and institutions are not very adept at handling exceptions. Schools also have this difficulty. It seems, from the outside (as a Canadian), that NCLB is making this institutional quality worse in U.S. schools.

The definition of a ’sane’ person as someone who is confident and can deal iwth ambiguity holds for my sister and her illness. Mental illness truly robs a person of confidence and the ability to handle changes. Now I know that you are not expressing opinion about the nature of mental illnesses and how we margainalize people who are ill in this particular way but it does strike me that the society that we build when we work towards a monoculture resembles a prison - institutional and rule bound. What a shame that the society that we live in is being shaped by a need to create clones instead of developing individuals. What a fool’s errand to try to make all persons’ clones. Will this system develop a society of persons more open to each other and the variety which nature produces, likely not. Although test get us caught up in the measurables of school life, we need to remember that not all of the important things are measureable. To quote from a sign in Einstien’s office at Princeton “Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts”. Thus the name of my blog - What Counts. When we teach for the purpose of developing compassion, trust, empathy, honesty, we are fighting the societal stream. It can’t be counted, it can’t be measure and you’ll never find it on a national exam. We can’t forget the important uncountable stuff.

Thanks for keeping the important stuff on the front burner!

By: Meredith Broderick

Meredith Broderick — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 01:02:48 +0000

I feel from the persepective of a veteran teacher the thing that bothers me most about NcLb and the way schools have responded to it, is that we are not creating teachers, real teachers, you know the kind, you had a few of them in your life, teachers that do things, and say things that change your life, teachers that start the dialogue of education in a persons life,teachers that inspire life-long learning. NO one enters the profession able to do this, make a real difference, there are very few teacher prophets, however given some ability to move creatively in a classroom, and swing a cator two , many mediocre teachers will become great teachers.Teachers who will inspire real passion in their students. Unfortunately the ways schools have interpreted NCLB much of the classroom is a scripted affair, (or perhaps conformity is inherant to NCLb) Either way it pains me to see new teachers, who are fooled to thinking that teaching is formulaic, (and easier) than it really is.
We are robbing young teachers of the chance to become the kinds of teachers we want our own kids to have, great , gifted, inspiring teachers, teachers that kill themselves to get across to kids.

By: Sarah Mcintosh Puglisi

Sarah Mcintosh Puglisi — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:30:17 +0000

I posted on my site…too long for here.

By: Eric Hoefler

Eric Hoefler — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:05:41 +0000

Hi TMAO. Thanks for your continued input to this discussion.

I’ll agree that it’s more important to know basic math and have basic literacy skills. No doubt. I get concerned, however, when that gets used as a reason/excuse to sacrifice other parts of the curriculum, to educate/address only part of the student, or to lose sight of the importance of student engagement and the affective domain. (Again, a problem with execution of the bill, but one that’s still too easy to read from the bill.) “The law without the spirit is dead” and all …

The idea that you can just address one thing if the other things are failing just doesn’t work. A wounded body needs immediate medical attention to the wound, yes. However, if you don’t quickly get some water and food into it, all your excellent wound treatment will fail. Afterwards, if you don’t get that body some exercise (while continuing water and food), the body will fail itself. I get priorities, but they are limited in scope and cannot come at the expense of other things.

I’m definitely with you on the “larger educator achievement gap.” But you’ve addressed this in your own blog … it will not go away until we provide an incentive for more talented, successful teachers to join/stay. Is that secondary to kids’ success? Of course … but also, no: many of these problems have to be addressed together before we will see any benefit reach the students.

As you know, I agree with greater teacher accountability (across a wider spectrum, using more appropriate forms of assessment). On the other hand, there are only so many things teachers can do. That’s not a cop-out, that’s just a fact. We are, after all, people with lives beyond the classroom. We are, after all, part of a system. To the extent that the system ties our hands, we will fail. To the extent that we are asked to repair problems that are societal, particularly without the support of the society to do so, we will fail. We ask schools to do more than schools are capable of doing (or were designed to do) and then blame the schools when they fail. (This is Doug’s “can’t accept … that teachers are the sole cause of student failure.”) I’m not trying to let teachers off the hook, here … but I’m not letting anyone esle off, either.

Doug’s concerns about punitive actions are still legitimate, and you don’t really address that. You appeal to the students who are being neglected, but don’t discuss how these punitive actions will remedy the problem. Replace staff? Yeah, a good idea. Problem is, where are we going to get the new staff? Turn schools over to the state? What’s the state going to do with a school? My state can’t even successfully address traffic concerns (seriously).

Also, your dismissal of the studies that Sarah referenced seems a bit too off-handed. I’m not trying to be confrontational here, I’d just really like to hear more about the reasons you dismiss them (perhaps in a blog post of your own?). I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this article.

Finally, I’m not trying to make you into the poster-boy for the pro-NCLB movement, and so I realize you’re not responsible for providing all the arguments/support and that yours are not the only ones. You may not have time to address all these issues as fully as I’d like. (I’ve had snow and holidays giving me free time lately.) You may know of others who are doing so … ?

Thanks for your input so far.