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	<title>Comments on: Retro reform idea &#8211; Merit Pay</title>
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	<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/</link>
	<description>(bôr&#039;dər-lănd&#039;) n. Located on or near a frontier. An indeterminate area or condition.</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Kerr</title>
		<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-127506</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great links here to Willingham and Herndon. I&#039;ve heard Herndon mentioned positively before but you have now pushed me to the point of buying one of his books, so thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great links here to Willingham and Herndon. I&#8217;ve heard Herndon mentioned positively before but you have now pushed me to the point of buying one of his books, so thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: A. Mercer</title>
		<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-124724</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Mercer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 17:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borderland.northernattitude.org/?p=1508#comment-124724</guid>
		<description>@doug, I hear you about the money not being what motivates, and that&#039;s why I think they found some advantage in small scale bonuses. I think the participants saw them as more &quot;social&quot; than &quot;monetary&quot; in value. Ariely didn&#039;t do the studies in work groups, so we don&#039;t know what effects (good and bad) &quot;choosing&quot; who would get the bonuses would have on group morale and dynamics.

I hear you about test scores. I thought @charlie&#039;s ideas about giving it to folks doing specific work was good, and that often happens with stipended positions/tasks within contracts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@doug, I hear you about the money not being what motivates, and that&#8217;s why I think they found some advantage in small scale bonuses. I think the participants saw them as more &#8220;social&#8221; than &#8220;monetary&#8221; in value. Ariely didn&#8217;t do the studies in work groups, so we don&#8217;t know what effects (good and bad) &#8220;choosing&#8221; who would get the bonuses would have on group morale and dynamics.</p>
<p>I hear you about test scores. I thought @charlie&#8217;s ideas about giving it to folks doing specific work was good, and that often happens with stipended positions/tasks within contracts.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Noon</title>
		<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-124687</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Noon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 03:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borderland.northernattitude.org/?p=1508#comment-124687</guid>
		<description>Alice, one of the links you left was broken, so I took the liberty of linking your comment to the three posts on performance incentives that you did recently. I believe that&#039;s what you were referring to - they were quite good.

The main difficulty is, as Herndon noted, there should be a rational basis for deciding who gets the &quot;bonus&quot; money so that everyone understands why one person did, and someone else did not get it. 

Speaking for myself, I won&#039;t/don&#039;t work harder for more money. I don&#039;t do anything &lt;em&gt;just&lt;/em&gt; for money. I went into teaching knowing that I wasn&#039;t going to make a lot of money - which isn&#039;t the same thing as saying I don&#039;t care about money - but there are other job-related things that I also care about.

I believe a lottery system would work better than one that&#039;s tied to test scores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alice, one of the links you left was broken, so I took the liberty of linking your comment to the three posts on performance incentives that you did recently. I believe that&#8217;s what you were referring to &#8211; they were quite good.</p>
<p>The main difficulty is, as Herndon noted, there should be a rational basis for deciding who gets the &#8220;bonus&#8221; money so that everyone understands why one person did, and someone else did not get it. </p>
<p>Speaking for myself, I won&#8217;t/don&#8217;t work harder for more money. I don&#8217;t do anything <em>just</em> for money. I went into teaching knowing that I wasn&#8217;t going to make a lot of money &#8211; which isn&#8217;t the same thing as saying I don&#8217;t care about money &#8211; but there are other job-related things that I also care about.</p>
<p>I believe a lottery system would work better than one that&#8217;s tied to test scores.</p>
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		<title>By: A. Mercer</title>
		<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-124681</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Mercer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 01:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borderland.northernattitude.org/?p=1508#comment-124681</guid>
		<description>The first fallacy out there is how well &quot;incentive&quot; bonuses&quot; have on performance in the private sector/business. At the risk of belaboring a point I&#039;ve blogged about a lot lately, (&lt;a href=&quot;http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/04/testing-stereotype-threat-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-i/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/06/testing-stereotype-threat-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-ii/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;,  and &lt;a href=&quot;http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/20/testing-stereotype-thread-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-iii/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;) there is work in economics out there showing that disproportionately sized bonuses get you worse, not better performance. Then, we have only real life to look at in the last economic cycle to see the nasty end that these &quot;performance&quot; based system can lead to.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.predictablyirrational.com/?page_id=17&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The study done by Ariely&lt;/a&gt; does show some benefit in performance for small bonuses. I think it might be that those are not perceived as &quot;monetary&quot; but more a &quot;social&quot; transaction, such as Charlie talks about? I imagine if they were perceived as being handed out randomly, or with favoritism, they could have a very pernicious effect on morale though.

I think it&#039;s work at how we do compensation and seniority just to keep ourselves intellectually honest. I&#039;m concerned about what is happening with largely seniority based layoffs in my district, that we&#039;ll end up with a teaching staff that is all about 10 years from retirement if things keep up as they are. There is also not a lot of evidence for seniority making teachers better after the 5-10 point (although by what measure?), which is the basis for pay and job retention in most places. But if those are problems, abolishment of the system for a &quot;market-based&quot; is not to palatable either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first fallacy out there is how well &#8220;incentive&#8221; bonuses&#8221; have on performance in the private sector/business. At the risk of belaboring a point I&#8217;ve blogged about a lot lately, (<a href="http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/04/testing-stereotype-threat-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-i/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/06/testing-stereotype-threat-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-ii/" rel="nofollow">here</a>,  and <a href="http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2009/05/20/testing-stereotype-thread-and-the-perversion-of-incentives-part-iii/" rel="nofollow">here</a>) there is work in economics out there showing that disproportionately sized bonuses get you worse, not better performance. Then, we have only real life to look at in the last economic cycle to see the nasty end that these &#8220;performance&#8221; based system can lead to.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.predictablyirrational.com/?page_id=17" rel="nofollow">The study done by Ariely</a> does show some benefit in performance for small bonuses. I think it might be that those are not perceived as &#8220;monetary&#8221; but more a &#8220;social&#8221; transaction, such as Charlie talks about? I imagine if they were perceived as being handed out randomly, or with favoritism, they could have a very pernicious effect on morale though.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s work at how we do compensation and seniority just to keep ourselves intellectually honest. I&#8217;m concerned about what is happening with largely seniority based layoffs in my district, that we&#8217;ll end up with a teaching staff that is all about 10 years from retirement if things keep up as they are. There is also not a lot of evidence for seniority making teachers better after the 5-10 point (although by what measure?), which is the basis for pay and job retention in most places. But if those are problems, abolishment of the system for a &#8220;market-based&#8221; is not to palatable either.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Noon</title>
		<link>http://borderland.northernattitude.org/2009/05/28/retro-reform-idea-merit-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-124661</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Noon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 16:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borderland.northernattitude.org/?p=1508#comment-124661</guid>
		<description>Point taken, Charlie, and thanks for making it. I&#039;ve many times thought that the more difficult classroom assignments (with behavior problems, large classes, learning disabilities, non-English speaking students, etc.) and taking on extra duties should bring additional compensation. I&#039;m not opposed to differential pay schemes, per se. The problem is with the idea that pay should be linked to &lt;em&gt;performance&lt;/em&gt;, when performance=test scores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken, Charlie, and thanks for making it. I&#8217;ve many times thought that the more difficult classroom assignments (with behavior problems, large classes, learning disabilities, non-English speaking students, etc.) and taking on extra duties should bring additional compensation. I&#8217;m not opposed to differential pay schemes, per se. The problem is with the idea that pay should be linked to <em>performance</em>, when performance=test scores.</p>
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